Saturday 12 March 2016

Barrier

I have been comparing Jerry Pournelle's CoDominium History to Poul Anderson's Technic History and to relevant works by Robert Heinlein and James Blish. So far, I have:

reread The Mote In God's Eye (with Larry Niven) although not agreed with Heinlein about it;

enjoyed rereading King David's Spaceship, which is recommended by Anderson;

appreciated the Prologue of The Mercenary and the future politics in the opening chapters.

However, I have encountered a barrier. The narrative suddenly jumps to Falkenberg, now a mercenary, on a colony planet with complicated social problems that I have not been able fully to engage with or get involved in. Pournelle is creating a political conflict so that Falkenberg will be able to apply military force to it. But, as CS Lewis and Brian Aldiss both said in different ways (see here), we do not go to other planets to find "The same old stuff we left behind..."

I remember a previous reading of The Mercenary and have also googled here and here. From these sources, I gather that:

the Falkenberg series has been collected and re-collected and now comprises a single compilation co-written by SM Stirling;

there are Patriotic Wars, Formation Wars, Secession Wars and a sub-series called "War World," which is longer and more complicated than I had realized;

the selling of military services becomes a major part of the interstellar economy;

unemployed populations make unreasonable demands on resources;

the view is expressed that such populations should be left to sink or swim;

Falkenberg orders a massacre.

I believe that the employed in an industrial/technological society can redirect production and resources away from warfare towards welfare which would mean the elimination of poverty whereas "Welfare" has come to mean its perpetuation and institutionalization! I might find myself too out of sync with the assumptions and ethos of Falkenberg and his colleagues to continue reading their history.

31 comments:

Sean M. Brooks said...

Kaor, Paul!

Why did you disagree with Robert Heinlein's criticisms of the first draft of THE MOTE IN GOD'S EYE? I can't remember where I read his letter to Niven and Pournelle, but a lot of his suggestions made sense to me and were adopted by the authors in revising MOTE.

Sean

Paul Shackley said...

Sean,
I was disagreeing with Heinlein's statement, quoted on the back of the book, that this was the best novel about first contact and possibly the finest sf novel.
Paul.

Paul Shackley said...

Sean,
Click on the word "Heinlein" in the post.
Paul.

Sean M. Brooks said...

Kaor, Paul!

Understood! Which SF book do you believe is the best SF treatment of First Contact by humans with aliens?

Sean

Sean M. Brooks said...

Kaor, Paul!

Thanks! I will. I know I read Heinlein's letter to Niven/Pournelle about MOTE, but couldn't remember where.

Sean

Paul Shackley said...

Sean,
I cannot name one in particular but I think several are better, e.g., A FOR ANDROMEDA by Fred Hoyle and John Elliot, THE BLACK CLOUD by Hoyle, CONTACT by Carl Sagan, "Wings of Victory" by Anderson.
Paul.

Sean M. Brooks said...

Kaor, Paul!

Commenting on your last paragraph: exactly how would you redirect industrial production away from warfare to a kind of "welfare" which actually eliminates poverty? And how would you prevent this from merely becoming yet another form of the bureaucratic "Welfare" (note the upper case) which succeeds only in perpetuating and institutionalizing poverty? How would you eliminate strife and conflict ranging from mere factional competition to the warfare we see among the adherents of opposing religions, philosophies, ideologies, rival nations, etc., today?

I'm sorry, but comments like your paragraph here strikes me as too idealistic to take seriously. So, my sympathies lies more with Colonel Falkenberg. Or with Anson Guthrie (and his downloads) in Anderson's HARVEST OF STARS books.

Sean M. Brooks said...

Kaor, Paul!

Alas, except for Anderson's Wings of Victory," I've not read the works you list and so cannot comment on them.

Sean

Paul Shackley said...

Sean,
I agree it is not easy and would require a large cooperative effort. On the one hand, we surely have the technological capacity to share wealth among the entire population. On the other hand, as we have discussed before, this raises other questions addressed by Anderson in various works. What is the gripping hand?
Paul.

Sean M. Brooks said...

Kaor, Paul!

First, and most obviously, WHY should people with opposing and ideas and beliefs cooperate with others holding contradictory beliefs? How do you get a fanatical Muslim jihadist, for example, to peacefully cooperate with people he utterly despises and hates? Secondly, how do you DEFINE "a large cooperative effort"? It's my belief that the closest we will ever come to such an ideal is thru a free enterprise economy based on private ownership of land and industry.

If my memory is correct, the "gripping hand" we see in Niven/Pournelle's Motie books refers to the large limb we one side of Moties, with two smaller more "normal" sized limbs on the other side.

Sean

Paul Shackley said...

Sean,
I know what a gripping hand is, physically. I was using the phrase metaphorically as in the 2nd Motie book, i.e., what is the decisive factor that will resolve the dilemma?
People of different religious beliefs cooperate in social and economic endeavours. Fanatics can be isolated so that they do not get a wider following.
Paul.

Sean M. Brooks said...

Kaor, Paul!

Oops! Sorry about misunderstanding you! I fear the "decisive factor" may well be one neither of us may like: a non-Muslim Napoleon type arising and conquering the entire world. Theoretically, a single world state might at least keep the peace while allowing ordinary people to get on with their lives. THE ENEMY STARS, from Anderson's works, being the example I've thought of. Or perhaps something like the Commonwealth from his Technic Civilization series (but, apparently, it did NOT arise peacefully or rationally).

And how would you "isolate" fanatics like Muslim jihadists? For example, the avowed goal of the Islamic State is to extend the power of its caliphate and found a new empire. It will almost certainly be destroyed only by military means. But, the seeds from which it arose, Islamic teachings, would remain, to inspire future jihadists.

Sean

Paul Shackley said...

Sean,
I agree things are very bad right now. Conflicts have led to support for fanaticism but there is a long history of peace between religions in the Middle East. Christians and Muslims knew about each others' religions and shared their festivals to the horror of a missionary.
Paul.

Paul Shackley said...

Sean,
By a large cooperative effort, I simply mean masses of people motivated and acting together. Thus are dictators overthrown despite all their power.
Paul.

Sean M. Brooks said...

Kaor, Paul!

Thanks for your two comments.

I'm sorry, I still have to disagree with your first comment above. Those alleged interval of peace between Muslims and non Muslims (Christian, Druzes, Yazidis, etc.) were always either brief or precarious. Bat Ye'or, in her book THE DECLINE OF EASTERN CHRISTIANITY has recounted, from contemporary and local sources, how many, many times Christians (and other non Muslims) have been persecuted. Christians were always at risk from the rage of the mob, the spite of the mullahs, or the chance death of a relatively tolerant ruler, of never ending bouts of oppression.

Commenting on your second note. I don't understand how large "masses of people motivated and acting together can WORK in anything more than a simple or narrowly defined sense. Such as the unity a people can show when at war with another nation. And overthrowing a despot is likely to be an even shorter lived type of "unity." And with no guarantee that anything better would succeed the tyrant.

Btw, I'm aware you are not sure of whether you wish to continue reading Pournelle's CoDominium series. I would regret that because I think very highly of the books he co-authored with S.M. Stirling: PRINCE OF MERCENARIES and GO TELL THE SPARTANS. The authors delved deeply into political thought in those works.

Sean

Paul Shackley said...

Sean,
I will read those books on your recommendation!
Paul.

Sean M. Brooks said...

Kaor, Paul!

And I would be interested by any comments you cared to make about those books. That delving deeper into political thought also made them feel more "Andersonian" to me.

Sean

Paul Shackley said...

Sean,
We have ordered THE PRINCE. And, of course, I am interested in Stirling.
Paul.

Sean M. Brooks said...

Kaor, Paul!

And I look forward with interest to any comments you may make about THE PRINCE. Esp. the parts co-authored by Stirling (basically the two books I cited above).

I wonder how the parts co-authored by Stirling were written? From outlines by Pournelle? And Pournelle would then review Stirling's text for any revisions he thought necessary? That's more or less how Stirling worked with Dave Drake.

Sean

Sean M. Brooks said...

I keep making a mistake about one book's title! Jerry Pournelle wrote PRINCE OF MERCENARIES as sole author. It was PRINCE OF SPARTA which was co-authored by both Pournelle and Stirling.

Sean

Paul Shackley said...

Sean,
The titles are extremely confusing.
Paul.

Sean M. Brooks said...

Kaor, Paul!

Too true! Theoretically, PRINCE OF MERCENARIES and PRINCE OF SPARTA should be easily distinguished from each other. But that has not been the actual case! (Smiles)

Sean

Paul Shackley said...

Sean,
There is also THE PRINCE and THE MERCENARY.
Paul.

Sean M. Brooks said...

Kaor, Paul!

True! THE PRINCE collects, THE MERCENARY, PRINCE OF MERCENARIES, GO TELL THE SPARTANS, and PRINCE OF SPARTA (plus incorporating, I think, two shorter works). Maybe IMPERATOR might have been a better title for the omnibus volume.

Sean

Paul Shackley said...

Sean,
So WEST OF HONOR is not in THE PRINCE? Do you know what is in FUTURE HISTORY?
Paul.

Sean M. Brooks said...

Kaor, Paul!

I did some quick googling about THE PRINCE, and one part of that collection--FALKENBERG'S LEGION-- collects THE MERCENARY and WEST OF HONOR. PRINCE OF MERCENARIES, by Pournelle alone, incorporates a shorter work called "Silent Leges." And, then, of course, we have GO TELL THE SPARTANS and PRINCE OF SPARTA, co-authored by Pournelle and Stirling.

And THE PRINCE contains three pages of new material on pages 173-76. I don't have the omnibus volume so I can't comment about those pages.

I hope this finally clarifies the rather confusing textual history of THE PRINCE, which I still think should have been titled IMPERATOR.

Sean

Paul Shackley said...

Sean,
Thanks. So THE PRINCE collects 5 volumes?
Do you know what the volume called FUTURE HISTORY contains?
Paul.

Sean M. Brooks said...

Kaor, Paul!

Yes, THE PRINCE collects five originally separate books: THE MERCENARY, WEST OF HONOR, PRINCE OF MERCENARIES, GO TELL THE SPARTANS, and PRINCE OF SPARTA.

I checked online, and what I read is that Pournelle's FUTURE HISTORY collects THE MERCENARY and WEST OF HONOR. Iow, the same material found in FALKENBERG'S LEGION.

Sean

Sean M. Brooks said...

Kaor, Paul!

Roughly speaking, the list below gives us the "main line of Jerry Pournelle's CoDominium series. With the related but separate "War World" being a secondary line.

THE MERCENARY
WEST OF HONOR
PRINCE OF MERCENARIES
GO TELL THE SPARTANS, by Pournelle and Stirling
PRINCE OF SPARTA, by Pournelle and Stirling

These stories are all set at the end of the CoDominium era, just before the beginning of the Great Patriotic Wars which destroyed the CoDominium (and nearly ruined Earth) and the Formation Wars leading to the hegemony of Sparta and the founding of the First Empire of Man.

The books listed below are set after the rise of the Second Empire of Man.

KING DAVID'S SPACESHIP
THE MOTE IN GOD'S EYE, by Niven and Pournelle
THE GRIPPING HAND, by Niven and Pournelle

Sean

Paul Shackley said...

Sean,
After THE GRIPPING HAND, there is OUTIES by Jennifer Pournelle.
Paul.

Sean M. Brooks said...

Kaor, Paul!

Dang! I completely forgot about Jennifer Pournelle's contribution to the CoDominium series: OUTIES. I prefer my books made from dead trees, so I've not read OUTIES. I know I should find a copy of that book and read it.

And, for completeness' sake, I'll list the "secondary line" of CoDominium books in the WAR WORLD series. These are collections of short stories or novellas contributed by many different authors. Including Poul Anderson's story in Volume 1, "The Deserter."

1. WAR WORLD: THE BURNING EYE
2. WAR WORLD: DEATHHEAD'S REBELLION
3. WAR WORLD: BLOOD FEUDS
4. WAR WORLD: BLOOD VENGEANCE
5. WAR WORLD: SAURON DOMINION

And I know a sixth volume of stories set on the War World of Haven has been published.

Sean